Dr. Alicia:

Hello, and welcome to the Soul of a Leader podcast where we ignite soulful conversations with leaders. In today’s episode, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen sit with Sunny Schwartz to discuss authentic accountability.

Dr. Eileen:

Hello, and welcome to Soul of a Leader. Today we have Sunny Schwartz who’s an author, advocate, and change maker. Whether we are 6 degrees of separation or zero degrees of separation, we are all significantly impacted by violence and other crimes, even if you don’t know it. Every day, thousands of criminals are released from prison only to one day return, costing taxpayers billions of extra dollars each year and leaving a growing trail of victims in their wake. Sunny Schwartz has spent her life in the trenches of this system, working tirelessly with law enforcement, prisoners, and survivors alike to mend what has been broken for far too long.

Dr. Eileen:

Welcome, Sunny. We are so glad to have you today.

Sunny Schwartz:

I am so happy to be with you. Thank you for the invite.

Dr. Eileen:

And did we miss anything you’d like to add in that introduction, Sunny?

Sunny Schwartz:

You nailed it. I got to tell you, it’s spot on.

Dr. Eileen:

Thank you so much. Again, we’re grateful to have you here and here we go. It’s the Soul of a Leader.

Dr. Alicia:

One of the things I’m impressed about and was excited to be talking to Sunny Schwartz today is your whole program around helping those who have been incarcerated be prepared for their new life as we would probably call it. And if something is not in place, as you stated, sometimes they are back in jail. So let’s talk a little more about your program in the counties that you serve out in. It’s in the Bay area, correct?

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s right, in San Francisco. And thanks for that. There’s some historical context, I think that’s important. I started out as a law student in 1980, as a defense attorney. And guess what? I’m a Chicago and I’m a proud Southsider, as a matter of fact.

Dr. Alicia:

Oh, wow.

Dr. Eileen:

Yay

Sunny Schwartz:

Yeah. I’m a Southsider. Well, we can get into it. Then smack in the middle of my high school, then we moved to the dreaded suburbs. Then that caused me a lot of therapy right there, but that’s another story. But I had criminal defense in my heart, in my DNA, and I had to put myself through law school. And I was a prisoner legal service intern in the San Francisco County jails. Walking into the jails and mainline for the first time was the most horrifying thing. Seeing people in cages, and particularly black and brown people, the vast majority just was horrifying.

Sunny Schwartz:

My goal was to try to get as many people out as possible. Because as I wrote about and named my book Dreams from the Monster Factory, I felt like it was a monster factory that people get sicker and more predatory than better. The goal was to basically get as many people out as possible.

Sunny Schwartz:

Well, as a law intern for four years, I kept seeing people coming back over, and over, and over again. And there’s no coincidence of who’s in jail, of course, class, race, abuse, my God. There’s just no coincidence. Nonetheless, when you see people coming back six, seven times within a year, it’s not only heartbreaking. It can be great cynicism and even those of us who have big hearts. The metamorphosis continued, especially when I met a child molester who was about to get out and nobody was doing anything to either stop him or to make sure he got the comprehensive help that he needed and would-be victims needed.

Sunny Schwartz:

My whole career trajectory after that encounter and I talk about it pretty comprehensively and frankly, in my book, and I realized, just getting people out, even though it was an important goal, it really wasn’t helping people. Because 70% of the folks inside were high school dropouts, had an average reading level of fourth to sixth grade.

Dr. Alicia:

Wow.

Sunny Schwartz:

I mean, when I left the Sheriff’s department, I saw a third generation of incarcerated people. How heartbreaking is that? 80% disclosed when we interviewed folks, 80% said they were victims of child sexual trauma, or they were perpetrators later on in life.

Sunny Schwartz:

That begged a moral and professional obligation to do things differently. I happened to work for a very forward-thinking Sheriff named Michael Hennessey, during his 32-year tenure in the Sheriff’s department. And he too shared the … Speaking of leaders, he was an incredible leader that allowed us to try to change the fabric of how we incarcerated and release people, to try to turn these horrible institutions called jails into more of an engine of hope and repair. Tough objective, but we saw-

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah, very tough.

Sunny Schwartz:

Yeah. It’s like almost a contradiction of terms. And I get it though, people saying burn it down. Well, let’s just stipulate, burn it down, but it’s not being burned down. So what do we do now when we have all these people in cages, or in pads, or in dormitories? Most of my career was based on creating these programs that were responsive to the people’s struggles, needs, deficiencies. That was the birth of the programs that perhaps we’ll talk about today, of how we started it, and the content of it, and the principles behind it.

Dr. Eileen:

I am so interested in hearing the principles, because what I hear in your voice, and what I and Alicia believe in a lot is compassion and forgiveness, and giving people … And how do they forgive themselves to move on too? So we’d love to hear a little bit about those principles because that takes a lot of courage and really does.

Sunny Schwartz:

Yeah. Let’s get down about that because I have definitely, an enormous amount of compassion for folks and I have an enormous amount-

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah, I hear it in your voice.

Sunny Schwartz:

Well, thanks. And I have to say that I also have this no-nonsense approach, is maybe this paradoxical combo of combination. Because when you hear the yearning in people’s hearts that’s authentic, of course, how can you not be responsive to that? However, when you hear the horror of some people’s behavior, what they inflicted on people, especially … not especially, including their loved ones, is horrifying as well.

Sunny Schwartz:

There’s this really important balance of no-nonsense accountability, authentic accountability, as well as empathy, and the gamut of emotions, but that’s who we are as human beings. My own professional metamorphosis started with getting as many people out to, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. We’re getting people out, but they’re not only coming back. They’re hurting themselves and others. And how do we stop this hideous cycle of violence and despair?”

Sunny Schwartz:

So we interviewed about 360 prisoners and I shared some of the statistics, the demographics of the struggles of illiteracy and child and adult abuse. The majority of the folks never held a legal job for more than a year. That was the call to action. We started to do some incredible work inside. I think it’s important to talk about the deputy sheriffs there. Talking about police, he says, “Thank goodness we’re talking about police reform.” But I also want to integrate some information and good experience that I have had. Some of the deputy sheriffs were the best role models.

Sunny Schwartz:

Now, of course, let’s stipulate, there were some deputy sheriffs who felt that their role was to punish people. Jails are not there to punish people. The court’s sentence people. Jails are there. Sheriff’s departments, or CO, correctional officers, they were there to run a safe and secure jail. The jury punish people already or the judge did, it’s not the role of the deputy sheriff, or the CO, the correctional officer.

Dr. Alicia:

Interesting that you bring that out. Yes.

Sunny Schwartz:

And that can be tricky for some people, especially abuse of power is unfortunately too alive and not so well. When we created these programs, we engaged law enforcement, the peace officers. They were re-owning their own professions by volunteering and saying, “I want to be part of this. I don’t want to just be a turnkey. I don’t want to just mace people and throw people down and up against the wall. You know what? I want to go home at night and feel like I contributed.” There were deputy sheriffs and our deputy sheriffs who are like that. And that was the contextual revolutionary part of our program development.

Sunny Schwartz:

So we had a lot of different programs, education, some vocational. But again, we kept seeing people coming back and kept hearing the same sorry excuses. “She made me do it. I only pushed her. Uh-uh (negative). No, no, no, no.” I happened to be in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and heard about this concept called restorative justice. This was circa 1995. And we hear about restorative justice, thankfully, a lot these days more than back then.

Sunny Schwartz:

So I actually didn’t go to the workshop. A colleague from California said, “Oh my God, I went to this great workshop. It’s called restorative justice.” I said, “What the heck is that?” She gives me a pamphlet. And it was that “Oh my God, this is the-“

Dr. Alicia:

That divine moment.

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s it. Because it’s imprinted still in my mind that first paragraph that I read and I intuitively know resonates with you guys as well. And it was, Restorative Justice recognizes the crime hurts everyone- victim, offender, and the community and creates an obligation to make things right. Wow. What a concept? Very basic. I mean, you look at native Americans, it’s biblical really. It’s not a new Fingal Western culture. On the contrary, you hurt someone, you take responsibility, you give back.

Sunny Schwartz:

When I saw that, it was like, “Oh my God.” Literally, I went up to my hotel room. I called the sheriff. I said, “I’m coming home early. I want to start a dormitory.” And we weren’t working with violent offenders per se. We were working with a lot of folks who … Because that was the other stat, 75% disclosed that they were a drug or alcohol addict.

Sunny Schwartz:

We were working on that mostly, but no one took on the issue of violence, both domestic and random. I called the sheriff up and I said, “I want to open up a dormitory using these principles of restorative justice, by putting 62 violent men in a dormitory and having very comprehensive programs.” And the sheriff for good reason said, “You’re out of your mind.” Because it defied conventional wisdom. You don’t think about it, 62 violent men in an open dormitory. You’re going to have a riot on your hands more likely than not.

Sunny Schwartz:

Again, leadership is critical. God bless our sheriff. Because he said, “Schwartz, this really makes me nervous, but just go slow.” I said, “Just trust me. I’ll keep you posted.” So I gathered … Frankly, I didn’t know a whole lot what I was doing if you want to know the truth. I was using the path and in my gut instincts. But restorative justice had three main principles. And that was the blueprint. And that was the driving forces, which was offender accountability, the voice, and service of those who’ve been harmed, the victim and community involvement to heal the harm caused by violence and other crime.

Sunny Schwartz:

So I methodically, but called people individually and set a meeting. The first meeting was about 40 people, and let me tell you, of strange bad fellows. We had victims of the most horrific violence sitting next to former abusive men who perpetrated the most horrific violence. Nobody knew who’s who and what’s what, but further on, they did. We had cops, we had a Baptist minister sitting next to an Orthodox rabbi, sitting next to a probation officer, sitting next to a housewife from the suburbs, sitting next to gay rights advocate, sitting next to Republicans, and pro-three-strikes, and pro-death-penalty, and anti-death penalty. I’m telling you guys, it was the most eclectic group that normally would not say three words to each other.

Dr. Eileen:

There’s a saying, we’re all connected. It looks like in this group, the energy was all connected. We are all connected. Visually, I’m trying to imagine this picture of all these diverse in all ways, coming together to support other human beings.

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s exactly right. And also, we had our eye on one prize, and that was the connectivity, as well as human beings. We had 62 men. We had more than 62, but we started in one dormitory. We had one mission, how to stop violence in our homes and in our community because the men were getting out. These were not first offenders folks. These were really bad-behaving humans. I’m not saying they’re bad humans. I said they’re bad-behaving humans.

Dr. Alicia:

The behavior.

Sunny Schwartz:

Yes. That’s right. Awful. That the vast majority of violence was learned and we believed it could be unlearned. And we had, again, a professional and moral obligation to make it right. We have an obligation to make things right, which is a key principle of restorative justice. Government has an obligation to make things right. The community has an obligation to make things … and individuals who’ve harmed people have an obligation to make things right.

Sunny Schwartz:

So we worked for 18 months and we launched what is called RSVP, Resolve to Stop the Violence Project. It started with 40 people, whittled down at the end of 18 months to about 15 people. And we had a curriculum developed that was about 10 hours a day, five days a week.

Dr. Alicia:

I saw the 10 hours and I thought, that’s good because there’s something about being busy that takes your mind off of the negative part. So, yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s right. No, that in and of itself, you’re quite right. Because some of the deputy sheriffs were like, “What. You’re compromising officers’ safety.” And I understood that because it does defy conventional wisdom. And there were some petitions at first. Well, guess what? What you just said is true, is that if people are occupied 10 hours a day, there’s less time to get into trouble and hurt people.

Dr. Eileen:

Well, and if they enjoy it, there’ll be in the flow.

Sunny Schwartz:

And PS. And if it’s something that they can get into, all the better. That’s in their best interest and ours because everyone’s getting up, that’s the whole thing. We can kick in taxpayers with good reason. They’re like, “Oh my God, I don’t want to spend a penny on people who hurt me.” And I get that. That’s the beauty of restorative justice. It includes everyone. It’s not just about, “Poor me. I’ve had bad circumstances. That’s why I hurt somebody.” It’s about, “You’re right. You did not deserve that victim. And you, who offended, look in the mirror, look in the mirror, and we’re going to provide tools that will hopefully get you to understand the impact of your behavior as well as your own humanity.”

Sunny Schwartz:

So we launched RSVP in September of 1997, and it’s still going strong.

Dr. Alicia:

1997?

Sunny Schwartz:

Yeah. That’s 100 ago. Isn’t it? Oh my God. Yeah, in 1997, we launched it and it’s still going strong. It’s not going strong now because of COVID. Programs are really virtually put to a halt. Maybe that will change when it’s safer, obviously. We did the same thing. We created, when we talked to each other a little bit before, another program that gives me such great pride to be part of. And that’s the Five Keys School and Program, where we created our, I’m not sure if it was the first, people say it is, a first charter high school for incarcerated adults, accredited.

Sunny Schwartz:

Because as I said, 70-plus percent are high school dropouts. Nothing stops violence like education.

Dr. Alicia:

I know we all say, education is key, but it literally is the key. It really is.

Dr. Eileen:

It is. And Alicia and I … Sunny, all our schooling was done at night. We worked full-time and went to school at night. And we always say education is something no one can take away from you. No one, no matter where you learn, what you do, it’ll always be there. It’s a foundation.

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s right. Well, congratulations to you, both in night school.

Dr. Alicia:

Oh my gosh. Forever we were working during the day and night school, but …

Dr. Eileen:

And we look back and we go, “Where do we get that energy?”

Dr. Alicia:

“How do we do it?” Right.

Sunny Schwartz:

Totally did that. Congratulations.

Dr. Alicia:

Now it’s like, “We need to take a nap.”

Sunny Schwartz:

And we’re here to speak about it. That’s a beautiful thing. Right?

Dr. Alicia:

Right. And so that’s why I go back to that point of, if they’re busy doing something, number one, that it’s in a controlled structure environment, where the love is there, the focus is there, the concern for betterment is there, all the elements that you guys have put together, it will keep them focused, but you have to have those opportunities there. And I’ve had family members who’ve been in jail, so I’m no stranger to it. Some close, some distant. And, I always wonder what makes them … He’d been back and forth in jail at least seven times since he was 18. So he’d be 31 next month.

Sunny Schwartz:

Sorry.

Dr. Alicia:

But again, it goes back to, you drop out of high school, you think living in the streets with your buddies, but that’s not the answer. But I go back to what you said is, if he had stayed in school and stayed focused on education, it then gives you a level … like Dr. Eileen and I say, “There’s a level of accomplishment there to help you not go to the streets because you feel like you accomplished something.” So when you have them there in the process, like we have these value cards, are you guys instilling values in them? What’s helping them with self-esteem? What’s helping them with courage? Because outside of those walls, it is a world.

Dr. Alicia:

So talk a little bit about what that element is about.

Sunny Schwartz:

Yeah, spot-on to you, what you’re saying. There are so many stories I can share. And it’s like, what is it about? Like, your family members, my family members, other people’s family members, why is it that someone who comes from the same family even, and one goes, gets in trouble, not good trouble, gets in hard, painful trouble, and one is pro-social? What is it?

Sunny Schwartz:

And I’ll tell you what I learned. And it was from this incredible evaluator that we had, Dr. James Gilligan and Dr. Bandy Lee. And they evaluated our program. Because we wanted to make sure we were in the ballpark with this.

Dr. Alicia:

Absolutely.

Sunny Schwartz:

This was not a Dr. Feelgood situation. We wanted to know are we, in fact, helping make a change. It’s ultimately up to the men in that context to make the change, but are we … So we had a three-year evaluation and indeed it did validate our intuition.

Sunny Schwartz:

So Dr. Gilligan and Dr. Lee evaluated for three years. Did it reduce overall incarceration? Very level. But what was promising is that violent men who were in RSVP compared to violent men in the general population, the RSVP participants had a 79.7% reduction in violent rearrest. They still got rearrested, some for drugs and vehicular cases were the majority, but they weren’t going out there as much, hitting you over the head, or me over the head, or our loved ones over the head.

Sunny Schwartz:

So it was a contextual success. It showed us we needed to integrate more curriculum around relapse prevention and that post-release programming was critical. We can have the best game in town inside. And like you just said, and they go out and there’s a big world out there.

Dr. Alicia:

There’s a big world. Yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s what was the call to action. But I’ll tell you what Dr. Gilligan said, “What is it? We come from the same DNA and the same family.” And I asked Dr. Gilligan that question. And he was just this incredibly learning man, both scholar, and clinician. Started at the Center on Violence at Harvard Medical Center and was a chief psychiatrist in Massachusetts Prisons. And he said, “I’ll tell you, Sunny, the ones who make it, every person who has made it against all odds, they can point to one person that underscored their worth and their humanity.” Check it out.

Dr. Eileen:

So their value to make sure that their soul is valued and amazing. And if one person can just lift and believe in another person, look at how it changes lives. Just one person.

Sunny Schwartz:

I’m telling you. When he said that, I-

Dr. Alicia:

That’s interesting. That’s powerful.

Sunny Schwartz:

It’s powerful.

Dr. Alicia:

Yes.

Sunny Schwartz:

It’s so simple, but it’s so profound. And at first, I was like, “What? That’s it?” I was thinking he was going to give me some esoteric stuff. One person underscored your humanity, and your worth, and your potential. As soon as I was like, “Wow,” I immediately thought of myself and that’s, I can totally harken back. And I know what-

Dr. Alicia:

No, it hit me, what he said. No, that’s something. Even the simplest things could be the most impactful and powerful points that connect you to, why?

Sunny Schwartz:

That’s right. And we have students in Five Keys who never passed a subject, never accomplished anything. And you talk about accomplishment? Our executive director, Steve Good shared a story right before graduation. We have a graduation, whether it’s in-custody graduation or post-release programs. And he shared, he was washing his hands in the restroom, and a graduate was washing his hands next to him, and the graduate dries his hand. And he started touching his cap and gown very slowly and going, “Wow.” He was 51 years old, by the way. He kept touching his cap and gown saying, “I never ever thought I’d see this day.” The pride, the emotions, the sense of accomplishment for the first time when he was 51 years old. So it’s never, ever too late.

Dr. Eileen:

And the gratitude too.

Sunny Schwartz:

And gratitude.

Dr. Eileen:

Yeah, we went to school, but so many people take that for granted.

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

Absolutely.

Dr. Eileen:

And when you see that, it just changes their lives, the world. Wow. That’s wonderful.

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah. And it goes back to what we talk about all the time, Dr. Eileen and I, on our podcast. It’s that soul, it’s that inner … You don’t know what the pain point is to why they disconnected to, if someone devalues them, where we could look and say, “That could be something simple.” But to them, it could be the biggest thing to get them back out on the street because that one word or that one conversation that struck them and say, “Well, you’ll never be anything.” Or just one negative comment can be so impactful to how the person would turn their life around.

Sunny Schwartz:

It’s emotional physics. If you’re told your whole life, you’re a nobody or worse, we’re creatures of our environment. How can we not? I’m a creature of my environment for better or worse. I like to pride myself on being an individual and thinking for myself, which I do, but we’re impacted by our environment.

Dr. Alicia:

You’re impacted by your environment. And I think, one of the values is, how do you build the courage in them or the spiritual part to them? How do you get them to connect so that those triggers won’t affect them to turn back around? Once you spent all this time, I feel like there still is a piece that can be added, maybe, and I don’t know. But how do you get them to connect to that inner soul part?

Sunny Schwartz:

I think it’s the cumulative effect. It’s not necessarily a singular sensation or event. It really, I think is cumulative because, we’re trying to, as I said, create environments, and opportunity, and service with, first of all, the Five Keys’ staff. To coin a phrase of our executive director who came on board in 2008, Steve, insanely passionate staff.

Dr. Alicia:

Great. Yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

In this work, you have to have fire in your belly. You have to have hope. You have to have a belief in the human spirit to rise. If you don’t, you’re collecting a paycheck and move over. You just can’t be part of this peaceful revolution. Do you know?

Dr. Alicia:

Yes.

Sunny Schwartz:

So it’s cumulative. It’s a success. Like I said, whether you’re 51 years old, or 19 years old, or … We work with adults, transitional age youth as well, and painfully for the first time, they can … We had a woman who didn’t know how to read, literally. And we started off, the teachers started off, showing her Dr. Seuss books. And this is an adult person, a woman.

Dr. Alicia:

Wow.

Sunny Schwartz:

Little, by little, by little. And that’s exhibit A perhaps that’s responsive to your question, is that literally, she was not able to read and she had children. And it was a place of such shame and anguish, as you can imagine.

Dr. Alicia:

Absolutely.

Sunny Schwartz:

She heard of Five Keys and start out with, I’m not sure which Dr. Seuss it was. And guess what? She graduated. And guess what else? We hired her. She’s working in our navigation centers for unsheltered men and women. And she’s a supervisor. She not only knows how to read. She knows how to help her kids now in school too. That’s what I’m talking about. Sometimes it’s a lifetime … I mean, sometimes it’s years, sometimes it’s not. It really is a case-by-case basis.

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah.

Dr. Eileen:

Well, Sunny, as we close first, I’d like to say, where can people get your book? And where can they find the Five Keys, if they’re interested in learning more and supporting?

Sunny Schwartz:

Well, can I talk about Home Free for a minute?

Dr. Alicia:

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Eileen:

Absolutely.

Dr. Alicia:

Absolutely, yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

Okay. Because I care about that more than my book, I’ll be honest. Because this is a thank you for that. Five Keys Home Free, I’ve been doing this for almost 40 years. I’ve been working with mostly men, not only. And in this program, Five Keys Home Free is to me, one of the most meaningful. It’s hard to rank, which is more meaningful, but let me tell you, in this project, women who were abused, and were not allowed to bring in evidence of their abuse, and ended up either killing their abuser or was at the scene of a crime under the coercion of their abusive husband or partner, at trial, were not allowed to bring in evidence of abuse. They were convicted, sentenced to life in prison, or life without the possibility of parole.

Sunny Schwartz:

This project is the quintessential feminist project, where women’s voices were … they were abused at home, they did not have a voice at home, they couldn’t bring voice into the courts, and literally have spent decades in prison. Because of legislation, they’re now starting to come out. And they’re coming out and our prison system, thankfully, we have a lot of residential treatment, but these are not addicts. These are women who were profoundly traumatized. These are women in their 50s, 60s, 70s. They don’t know what a Bluetooth phone is.

Dr. Alicia:

Right.

Sunny Schwartz:

They don’t know.

Dr. Eileen:

Yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

Some of them don’t know where … So we’re basically creating this co-housing, or as some people know what I mean when I say, a capote of sorts, a co-housing, where we are going to create this loving environment, and investing in their success, and have a sense that they can create their own pathway into self-determination. That is Five Keys Home Free. And we have a website, fivekeyshomefree.org. We have fivekeysschoolsandprograms.org. And people who want to get more information about that, please feel free to check us out because it really is about investing in everyone’s humanity, the people behind the walls, and us as a human race.

Dr. Eileen:

Correct.

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah. I can hear the passion, but I can so relate and understand all that. It’s so much work out here to help our people all over, whether in jail. I used to run Stedman’s organization, Athletes Against Drugs. So there are some similarities there dealing with it. And I tell you, Sunny, I can totally relate to the impact you’re making in the lives of these people. And then when you talk about the program for the women, it’s mind-boggling. These women didn’t have a voice. And now you’re creating something to give them a voice.

Sunny Schwartz:

Well, thank you for that. I challenge anyone not to relate to this. I don’t pretend to walk in the shoes of the men and women that I advocated for, for 40 years. It would be a cheap analogy, frankly, but there are parallels of humanity. We all understand shame in our various ways. We all understand wanting to do the right thing in various ways. How good it feels to do service. When someone gives someone a present, they feel good. This is an expanded version of that. And it’s about everyone’s humanity and really changing the course of how we incarcerate people and release them for everybody’s sake because they deserve better and we deserve better as a society.

Dr. Eileen:

Wow. Well, thank you so much. Sunny. This has been wonderful. And our listeners, are hearing wonderful, life-changing activities that you have created, implemented, and planted seeds to change so many people’s lives. And as we close our podcast, we always ask our guests to leave us with some words of wisdom.

Sunny Schwartz:

What has always driven me is, never give up. Don’t believe what people say, who you are, and you have to have hope. You have to hold onto that hope. I always think of Audre Lorde’s … it’s her mind. It’s that brilliant woman, is that your silence will not protect you. And that’s another, one stand up, walk tall, be your authentic self.

Dr. Alicia:

Huh.

Dr. Eileen:

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Sunny.

Dr. Alicia:

Thank you.

Dr. Eileen:

And that goes along with so many other people we’ve heard about, about, you know what, in the quiet of your mind, you will hear the answer and believe in yourself. And people will tell you things, but it’s your soul and your authenticity that knows where you need to go and never give up and completely believe. Thank you so much, Sunny. I’ve got goosebumps for those wonderful words.

Dr. Alicia:

I’m just in awe because you’re so right. You got to be authentic with yourself. I think that’s when the healing comes through.

Sunny Schwartz:

Without a doubt. And, that goes to leadership too.

Dr. Alicia:

Yeah.

Sunny Schwartz:

If you’re not authentic, if you’re not including people, if you’re not hearing their voices, you got to make your own decisions independently sometimes, but the authentic accountability, as well as the authentic empathy, is going to move our mountains and get to change our world.

Dr. Eileen:

Thank you for joining us on the Soul of a Leader podcast. We are knighting a new way of leading with your soul and interviewing ordinary people with extraordinary impact. Thank you for listening to the stories of our leaders, who will help and guide you on your leadership journey. For more information on our podcast, please visit our website at wwwsoulofaleader.com. Thank you for listening.