Eileen:

Hello and welcome to Soul of a Leader podcast, where we ignite soulful conversations with leaders. In today’s episode, Dr. Alicia and Dr. Eileen sit with Dick Burke, president, and CEO of Envoy Global to discuss role model leadership.

 

Eileen:

Hello, and welcome to Soul of a Leader. Today we have Dick Burke, president, and CEO of Envoy Global. He is responsible for the development of the overall company strategy, marketing, sales, finance, business development, and technology, while managing the day to day operations. Dick Burke received a bachelor’s degree from the College of Holy Cross and a JD from Georgetown University. Thank you for being part of the Soul of a Leader and welcome to our podcast.

 

Dick:

Thank you, Eileen. And thank you, Dr. Alicia. It’s great to be with you. I’m delighted. And I often think the topic of leadership, while important, doesn’t get all the coverage that it should. So I’m really happy to be with you today.

 

Alicia:

We are excited to have you. I was reading an article on the cranes about your organization, and I find it to be very exciting and really a stepping stone to other organizations. And a lot of that has to do with your leadership. So I’d like to ask you a question. So how do you challenge others to do their best? Because in order to get this type of recognition, you have to challenge people to be at their best.

 

Dick:

You’re exactly right. I’ll tell you a story. I was lucky to meet Sergeant Shriver. And Sargent Shriver, too many people think of him as Maria Shriver’s dad, right? Arnold Schwarzenegger’s father-in-law. But in reality, he was the architect of the Peace Corps for President Kennedy, he was the ambassador to France, he ran for Vice President in 1972, he ran the Board of Education in Chicago, he was President of Special Olympics. He had a remarkable career and I got to know him pretty well, I was very blessed that way. And he had an ability to inspire. And I said to him “How can you inspire so effectively with never descending into just being disingenuous or being sappy or being maudlin.” And he said “Dick, I believe in two things; I believe that the divinity resides in all people. And because of that, all people are A – capable of great things and B – needing to be treated with respect and dignity.”

 

Dick:

And that really stuck with me because I do believe people are capable of great things, our whole mission Envoy Global is to let people live their most fulfilling lives by letting them live where they wish and work where they wish and love where they wish. And inherent that is a recognition of the dignity of people. So, I think you’ve got to somehow see the dignity and see the value and see the potential in people and then draw that out. And I always think, well, how would I want that drawn out of me? So that’s how I think about Dr. Alicia.

 

Eileen:

Well, I love the fact that you said there’s divine energy, the divine spirit within each of us, that we have a purpose in our life. So your career has ranged from being a leader in many different organizations. So what inspires you to act on that leadership advice that you received?

 

Dick:

I’ll tell you, I’ve got a pretty unconventional background. I’ve been lucky, the last 10 years, I’ve got to lead businesses, a real estate business called HomeGain, and then apartments.com, some have heard of, and now Envoy Global. But I come to it in a strange trajectory, Eileen. I didn’t go to business school and I didn’t come up through sales or finance or tech or marketing. I’m a reformed lawyer. And so it became clear to me that if I wanted to be successful, one of the things I need to do is I need to overcome the fact that I didn’t have a traditional business background. And so, one way that it struck me as natural to do, would be to try to become a good leader. And as I thought about leadership and thought about business, Sargent Shriver’s advice about trying to see the dignity in others because of the presence of a divinity really stuck with me.

 

Dick:

And I think in part by that is I began to think, I want to be the leader I’d want to have. Who would I want my boss to be? I’d want my boss to be someone who was fair, who acted with integrity, who was inspiring, who gave me opportunities perhaps before I was fully ready for them, who trusted me, who empowered me, who treated me with respect and dignity, saw potential in me. Who, when I do make mistakes would quickly correct me, but in a constructive way. And I said that’s the boss I’d want to have. And I suspect most people would want to have that boss and that kind of leader. So, that’s how I think about it. It’s yes, Christian, but I think it transcends. And that’s how I really think about it.

 

Alicia:

Wow. It’s amazing. We have, Dr. Eileen and I, we use for our clients, value cards. And so we’re smiling because you use a lot of values that we kind of use with our clients like integrity and trust. And so, one of the questions I’d like to ask you, how do you have the courage to say what needs to be said when you’re a leader? What are some steps that you probably maybe think about or put in place? Because a lot of times being in that leadership role, it takes courage to say what needs to be said.

 

Dick:

Well, I’ll tell you, that is a great question, Dr. Alicia. I’m a pleaser. I’ve spent a fair amount of time thinking about why I’m a pleaser and what in my background caused me to be a pleaser. It was one of the hardest parts about being the leader is to have to say no, to have to take the hard decision, but because you end up doing things that people don’t want, it’s the right thing for the business and perhaps the right thing for them. But I really struggled with that. But to do that, and two things, one at the deepest level is really coming in and understand why do I feel conflict avoidance? Why do I feel like a pleaser? What is it in me that is causing that? And I do find I’m not a big fan of business books, doctor, but I do feel that that book, Radical Candor was pretty good [crosstalk 00:06:49] Scott’s book because it really showed how when you’re soft on someone, you’re also really dis-serving them. You’re denying them an opportunity to improve and grow and challenge themselves. And it wasn’t until someone said to me “Dick, you’re a pleaser, you’re too conflict avoidant.” And that was a real gift that person gave me, even though they may have felt uncomfortable. So I try to model that. It’s not the most natural instinct for me though, doctor.

 

Eileen:

And thanks so much for sharing that because my mantra is feedback is a gift, right?

 

Alicia:

Yes.

 

Eileen:

It takes courage for the person to say it, and it takes courage for the person to receive it. And I usually, when I have to give tough feedback, I ask for permission first. So is there any time that you can tell us when it was really hard, maybe a story or a situation where it really impacted you with your personal values and your work values to give feedback to somebody?

 

Dick:

Earlier in my career, I would too often muddle my message and hem and haw around it because I was elevating that person’s feelings versus that person’s growth. And I really just had to really steel myself and fortify myself to say it is a gift to that person. And if you do believe going back to Sergeant Shriver again, that the person is capable of great things and needs to be treated with respect, that allowed the words to flow more easily for me. The first cousin of that was, I will tell you one story. I joined Envoy Global about five years ago, and we had a strategy. We went hard after it. And after about a year, it became clear that it was not the right strategy. It was not working economically. It wasn’t the right decision. And I had to go into a room known for less than a year and let 25 people, many in their first or second job know that today was going to be their last day of work. And it was  incredibly painful.

 

Dick:

I knew it was the right thing for the business. And I know ultimately those people were going to be fine, but it was very, very, very difficult. And because I hadn’t built a brand as a leader of someone who was thoughtful and not rash and fair and… And so that was really difficult to try to execute a tough decision without the capital reputational political, whatever to do it. So I always tried to quickly establish those things. So when those tough decisions come, and they will come by the way,

 

Alicia:

Oh yes.

 

Dick:

Right, doctor? In prior jobs where I’ve been for 10 or 12 years, people were just like “Okay, I might not like it, but I do trust Dick’s, that he’s thinking about it the right way and he’s being honorable.” Here I just didn’t have that because I was so new.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. And I think a lot of times when you’re new in a role, you automatically are concerned about the people. But I go back to the times when I had to release people or do a separation, I always say it’s the hardest thing to do when you’re in a leadership role. You spend two days, three days not sleeping because again, you’re getting ready to probably make a change in that person’s life that will impact them in some form or shape, whether you think they can make it or not. And so that’s a hard thing to do. And so in that role in doing that, how do you get people to kind of have faith in a shared vision of yours when you’re in that leadership role? Because here again, your first time there, within a year you had to release people, how do you keep that faith with that shared vision with the remaining people that are working for you?

 

Dick:

So important and difficult. And again, I fall back to, okay, if I was one of the lucky ones who’s got to stay in that room because I wasn’t chosen for the reduction, I’d want to know exactly what the heck just happened. So I think you got to be remarkably transparent, remarkably humble, remarkably communicative and empathic. You got to understand that people are nervous at that point. They’re curious, they’re doubtful, probably skeptical. Communicate, communicate, communicate. You’ve got to own your mistakes. I said “Listen, I made a mistake. I thought this was the right strategy. Here’s why I thought it was right, this strategy. I learned it wasn’t the right strategy. And when you’re in a hole, you stop digging.” You got to be totally candid and humble and you can’t talk in corporatese, and you can’t be cold. Again, it’s just guided me, what would I want my boss to say to me? I’d want them to be candid, forthcoming, honest, and humble and having the vision to say “Instead of going that way, we’re going a different direction. And this is why I believe that slightly different direction is great. And we’ve got a great mission and here’s why I’m confident let’s get after it.”

 

Eileen:

And that is a wonderful summary because today more than ever Dr. Alicia and I are talking about authentic leadership. And what you just shared is what it is all about. Being humble, authentic, transparent, and in today’s unprecedented times of how the workplace is changing, not only for COVID, but it’s going to change for DNI. It’s changing from work from home, it’s changing globally. We believe that this new type of leadership is what’s going to attract talent. As you’re looking from, at your point of view at Envoy Global and where you’re placing people and talking in the industries because your company is spread out across the globe. And I’ve been a client of yours and I am still a client of yours at my present workplace. Tell me what your thoughts are on this changing workplace and the leadership that will move us forward.

 

Dick:

Yeah. I’ll tell you, that’s a big question and a hard question, Eileen. And I, first of all, I really agree with you. This is not solely because of COVID. This is, I think, a confluence of a number of factors. You’ve got the job economy, you’ve got COVID, you’ve got the move to automation, you’ve got the growing economic inequality, you’ve got generational differences. And I wish I knew exactly, but I think the best I can do is to try to be well-read and try to be mindful about different people’s different perspectives on it. And to just assume that everyone has my perspective and my background and my worldview and my experience set is completely off target.

 

Dick:

And empathy becomes an overused word, but it’s such a powerful word. You’ve got to try to understand where people are coming from, what’s driving them, what are their concerns, where do they want to go in their life, and tailor a message that’s honest in your own voice, but very, very mindful. One of the big changes, not because of COVID, is a move towards intellectual capital and the power of intellectual capital. Our business is about getting the right people in the right place, regardless of the border through visa and immigration. And the most successful companies in my mind are the ones that do the best job of attracting and retaining the best people. And you got to do that by being mindful of all the different things in their lives. And you do that by being empathic and incredibly communicative and transparent. And then you’ve got to give a message that will resonate with people about why they want to work for you versus all the other places to work. But it is a very challenging time. Some of the people right now, 22, 23, 24, 25, this is their first job and they’re going through this. And what’s happening in terms of where you work, furloughs, RIFs, GDP contraction.

 

Alicia:

So, in a time that we’re dealing with now, and as you being a leader, what do you see would be the next pivotal point for your organization? Have you thought about it? Because you hear everyone saying Yeah, we’re pivoting and we’re doing something different. We’re thinking outside the box.” And yes, the world really has changed for all of us within the last five or four months. So what do you see as a pivoting point for your organization?

 

Dick:

Boy, the most obvious one is the work from home. And it’s very difficult for us because part of what we do, Dr. Alicia, is helping people, we’ve got to prepare these visa applications for all this paper together and then ship it out and trying to do that from home with all the different people involved is challenging. So we’re pretty heads down just trying to make sure the trains on the track right now. But the whole move towards working from home raises interesting questions in my mind. Do people need to be where the job is? I believe it’s Facebook that said they envision a world where a large percentage of the workforce is not in the Bay area. And so what does that mean in terms of global mobility, for employment-based positions? And I think the jury is still out.

 

Dick:

My sense is when people say “We’re never going back to the office”, I don’t believe that. I do think there will be more of a hybrid where people will work from home maybe a day or two a week for all the productivity gains we talked about. But I do think there’s a role for collaboration and innovation. I was lucky years ago to get to spend a day or two at Pixar’s offices out in Emeryville, California where they make all the Toy Story movies, and it was the poster child for collaboration and innovation. They were all together. The building was designed in a way to people together, and there is no way Pixar could be as successful as they were in a work from the home environment a hundred percent of the time. So I’m not one of these people who think, oh, we’re never going back to the office. But I do think people are going to have been home by the time this ends at least nine months.

 

Eileen:

And I mean, there are so many articles going on now about loneliness.

 

Dick:

Right.

 

Eileen:

I mean, working at home by yourself, that human interaction. And if you’re expressive like me and you like people’s energy and working with people, it’s very hard to capture that across the video. It really is.

 

Dick:

We’re social animals. And I’m more extroverted than introverted, but people need that. And I do think, while there’s going to be change, I don’t buy into this theory that we’re not going to go back to the office.

 

Alicia:

Yeah. And I think what’s exciting is too, we’ve done this work from home and then you get into this point, you get lonely, you don’t have anybody to talk to when you walk to the bathroom or at the water fountain, or you go down for lunch and then you find yourself picking up the telephone and calling people and saying “I’m so glad just to hear a voice.” You have all these zooms and you have all these emails, you have all this texting. And then we lost something in that point of time, it’s just, there’s no sound, no voice, with the face. And so before we get ready to end, you have been certainly outstanding with your conversation with us. What are some words of wisdom that you would like to leave with our listeners that would help us get through whatever business situation or leadership role? What are some words of wisdom?

 

Dick:

Well, thank you for asking, Alicia. It’s been great to be with you and Eileen. I got to tell you when I was making the switch from being a lawyer and I was a lawyer for about the first 15 years of my career, switching over to being a business person. And I was all worried because the business people I knew they all seem to speak this crazy language and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I couldn’t understand a word of it.

 

Eileen:

All those acronyms, right?

 

Dick:

[crosstalk 00:19:16] that with intelligence, as opposed to realizing they’re speaking a language, but I’ll tell you the story. So through this weird chain of events, I got to have dinner, my wife and I, with Jamie Dimon, who was the Chairman of Chase. This was back when he was living in Chicago. He was running, at the time I think it was NBD and the old first [inaudible 00:19:35] show. It was just the four of us. And he could not have been nicer. And he said, “Well, what are you doing?” I said “Well, I’m trying to make the switch from being a lawyer to a business person, but I’m struggling because I don’t have an MBA. And I don’t understand this stuff.” I said, “What advice would you give me, Jamie?” And he thought for a second and he looked at me, said “Don’t hire any a-holes.” I couldn’t tell if he was being funny or serious, but I had this puzzled look, and he goes “Oh, I am serious. You’ll hire really good people and set a clear path and treat them right, they’ll treat their people right and good things will happen.” And I’ll tell you that has kept me in such good, said don’t hire a-holes because there’s nothing worse than a corrosive corporate culture. And that’s the advice that I got that has, as I said, things have gone well, it’s largely in part because of that. And I’d share that.

 

Eileen:

Well, and the good people all around you, then, positive, high energy, respect, dignity, all the things that goes back to how you want to be treated.

 

Dick:

Right.

 

Alicia:

Yeah.

 

Eileen:

Thank you. Thank you so much for those words of wisdom.

 

Alicia:

I think that was the best words of wisdom I’ve heard on the whole podcast.

 

Dick:

It was seemingly flippant, but deeply, profound might be a little bit heavy, but it was very, very helpful to me.

 

Eileen:

Thank you for joining us on the Soul of a Leader podcast. We are igniting a new way of leading with your soul, and interviewing ordinary people with extraordinary impact. Thank you for listening to the stories of our leaders who will help and guide you on your leadership journey. For more information on our podcast, please visit our website at http://www.soulofaleader.com. Thank you for listening.